Greensboro Aquatic Center PR Blitz Begins: Costs and Benefits

Over the last couple of days, we have seen articles in the News and Record in anticipation of the grand opening of the Greensboro Aquatic Center (GAC).  It appears there is a PR blitz under way as Matt Brown continues to sell this particular part of his High Point Road empire.

The paper had correctly editorialized against the pool.  But now it is tooting horns on behalf of Brown.  In fact, there was a recent puff piece regarding Brown.

One article today reassures us that school children will learn to swim at the GAC.  This was the bone tossed by the Melderec forces to give the Simkins crowd on the city council the wherewithal to defend their vote in favor of the center.  It would, after all, help black kids learn to swim.

But then we see the fine print.  Only the second grade in two schools will be learning to swim this fall.  Only $25,000 has been donated for the program.  That hardly gives us total coverage of the entire local school system.

Another article in the sports section Sunday had a headline that reassured us: "Public Will Have Plenty of Opportunities to Take a Dip" (unposted).

Wait a minute.  I thought this was supposed to be a community swimming pool.  I thought the bond issue was approved at the polls as a Parks and Recreation project.  It should therefore be unnecessary to reassure readers that they will have the opportunity to take a dip.  That should be a given.  But it seems reassurances must now be made because the pool became something else entirely.

There are also some interesting revelations.  A sidebar adjacent to the article revealed that teens and adolescents would have to pay $4.00 to use the pool, and adults would have to pay $5.00.  Monthly memberships will cost $33 for students and $39 for adults.  That is roughly in the same range as a membership at the YMCA.

Let's recall that the aquatic center will be primarily serving the local swim community-- an upper middle class/ upper class clientele.  These membership fees and daily use fees serve an important purpose, besides revenue generation.  They will help keep out what the swim community will regard as "riff-raff". 

It is hard to imagine that many of Greensboro's poor will pay those fees.  But let's remember-- the facility now has a "higher" purpose.

Yes, the voters approved this parks-and-recreation facility; will pay for it with their taxes; and now will have the privilege of paying to use it.  The Melderec con Simkins crowd made it happen.  It could not have passed without the support of council members Nancy Vaughan, Zack Matheny and of course, Robbie Perkins.  The majority "Republican" council allowed this unnecessary cost to be levied against taxpayers; and we now have the debt to repay.  The costs associated with the pool compete against other more important municipal cost centers, such as police. 

The Greensboro Sports Commission and the county Convention and Visitors Bureau, with their "Tournament Town" rhetoric, were eager to serve the interests of the local hospitality industry at the expense of taxpayers in the midst of a very difficult economic time.  The Melderec con Simkins crowd had chased out many of the area's other potential employers; and had to resort to enlargements of the public sector to maintain local hotel and restaurant business. 

The opening of the center closes a sordid chapter in the history of our city.  It would be appropriate to regard the PR blitz with some degree of skepticism.

Comments

[Ceecee]

I guess I'm biased because swimming is my favorite thing to do. But they should have the pool. Maybe they should increase the tax money for it, so that it can be free for all comers.

[Don Moore]

The area public pools have a nominal fee of $1.00/$2.00 and $5/month for Senior Lap Swimming - http://www.greensboro-nc.gov/index.aspx?page=1120

[Joe Guarino]

Thanks, Don, I stand corrected on that point. Had vaguely remembered that when we had used the Bur-Mil pool years ago that there was no charge. But I deleted that statement.

I wonder how many voters would have supported the bond issue if they knew they would have to pay these fees to use the facility?

[bubba]

"Maybe they should increase the tax money for it, so that it can be free for all comers."

Maybe we shouldn't have built it at all, given the lies, the hocus pocus transformation, and the never-ending rabbit hole the cheerleader elites always want to fill with the with the public's money.

[Joe Guarino]

Bubba, it is incredible that, given the history, the paper is now changing its position and writing approvingly-- repeatedly-- about the facility.

And of course, some of its favored public servants-- Perkins, Vaughan, Matheny-- all played a critical role in making it happen. These elected officials are granted a shiny public image despite the filthy means used to advance the aquatic center.

[Mick]

Joe,

I take great exception to you projecting your own very near racist bias on to me and other members of the evil swim community. Your broad brush stroke is very offensive and sadly pathetic. I would say I was disappointed but unfortunately "disappointed" isnt exactly accurate as I have come to expect this BS from you. Pathetic.

An adult membership at Bryan Family YMCA is $51/month + $60 joining fee or $56/month. Is it your contention that this is "roughly the same" as $39/month? Only 43% diff. Typical from a rich elitist doctor type. Pretty loose with the numbers there Joe. Again typical and pathetic. Your plausible deniability (in this case the use of the word "roughly") schtick is getting really old. Lindley Park, Smith, Bur-Mil Pool and Grimsley all charge a user fee. But dont let details, numbers and facts get in the way of your play to the Peanut Gallery BS.

As we have discussed before and you continually choose to ignore (a less gentile writer would say "lie about") is that the facility was billed as a competitive facility from the start and was labeled as such in the bond language. So concerns from the community about public usage are legit.

Pathetic post Joe... pathetic.
Your legitimate concerns about this facility and the process have from the start been drown out by your BS. Your blog post is much much more of the latter in this case.

[Ed Cone]

"They will help keep out what the swim community will regard as 'riff-raff'".

You make our neighbors with children who swim sound like awful people, Joe.

I understand the dismay with the process behind the facility, but I don't see how that translates to the attitudes you ascribe to these local families.

[Joe Guarino]

Mick, my wife and kids are members of the Spears YMCA; and my wife is an avid swimmer. The cost of an adult membership at the Spears YMCA is $48/mo. This is a private facility, and the cost is only $9 more per month than the aquatic center. And members of the YMCA, of course, get to use the rest of its facilities-- exercise equipment, gym, etc. It is a much better deal for those who can afford it. And it is located in a much safer part of town.

Let's remember-- the aquatic center is supposed to be a PUBLIC facility. Its costs to the public should be dramatically less than what the private sector would charge. There should be no financial barriers for the poor to use the facility.

One last point. The joining fee at the YMCA is a one time fee, so it is inappropriate to distribute its cost as an annual fee.

[Joe Guarino]

Ed, if the poor were to use the aquatic center heavily, it would interfere with the image Brown is trying to create for the facility.

Also, the swim community is one of the major interest groups for which this facility was built and paid for by taxpayers. If there were lots of poor people using the facility, the swim community would be subjected to lots of people around them who look different than they do, act different than they do, and perhaps even smell different than they do.

Obviously, one of the purposes of the fees is to generate revenue. But I wonder if the fees are motivated by other factors as well.

After all, this was supposed to be a PUBLIC facility, for the benefit of the PUBLIC. You know, a parks and recreation facility.

[One Hour Dry Cleaner]

Your robe and hood are ready.

[Mick]

Science Center? Lakes? Marinas? Bur Mil? Lindley? Grimsley? Sportsplex? Can anyone show up at WMS and play baseball whenever they want for free? Your argument just doesnt hold water Joe. No prob for you though (as usual).

"If there were lots of poor people using the facility, the swim community would be subjected to lots of people around them who look different than they do, act different than they do, and perhaps even smell different than they do."

I am speechless. I am however glad you finally decided to out yourself as an elitist bordering on bigot and racist. Do you feel better now? Ah Joe's plausible deniabilty BS with phrases and words such as "I wonder" and "roughly". And of course not specifically using race to describe the "riff raff" and "poor". Nice touch.

"Inappropriate" is definitely a word you should be familiar with today Joe.

But it is also inappropriate to ignore the one time joining feeat the Y's. For the record I dont consider a 25% diff at one facility and a 43% diff at another Y faclity as roughly similar. BTW... Parks and Rec manages numerous facilities which routinely have somewhat limited access, user fees, etc. Here is a hint check out some of the above referenced locals.

Unbelievable.

[Joe Guarino]

One Hour, I am arguing that a public facility should have less financial barriers for usage by the poor. Read for comprehension.

[Mick]

So calling the swim community (families, kids, etc) elitists, insulting entire groups of folks, saying certain types of people smell is arguing for fewer barriers for the poor. Got it.

One Hour did not make much of a leap Joe.

[triadwatch]

“This groundbreaking program will have an enormous positive impact on this entire community,” said Walker Sanders, president of The Community Foundation of Greensboro. “The Learn to Swim program will provide every child in Guilford County the opportunity to learn how to swim. In doing so, the program will not only educate our children but help save lives, too.”

from the community foundation web site and every child no just 2 out of 67 elementary schools, nice one .

[Mick]

Agreed to a point. They have a long way to go in many respects.

[Steve]

If we are concerned about teaching blacks to swim (which I think is important) then why have there not been any major programs before? We’ve had two indoor and several outdoor pools for decades now.
It wouldn’t surprise me if they moved the swim classes to another location now that this thing is built. Anyone remember the coliseum expansion and the Hockey fans? They sure duped the Hockey community AFTER they got their votes.

[Mick]

Just for info... The particular branch of the evil swim coimmunity I am affiliated with has been running and funding learn to swim programs aimed at lower income and minority kids for a few years now.

[bubba]

"Anyone remember the coliseum expansion and the Hockey fans? They sure duped the Hockey community AFTER they got their votes."

Exactly.

To paraphrase what someone is saying in another thread here, the question that needs to be asked of the public is "see the pattern yet?"

[Grayson]

Dr. Guarino, I think you came back from your hiatus a little too early. I find your comments "... the swim community would be subjected to lots of people around them who look different than they do, act different than they do, and perhaps even smell different than they do" to be completely repugnant and a gross stereotypical generalization.

[bubba]

"Dr. Guarino, I think you came back from your hiatus a little too early."

I think you need to re-read the passage, and think about the context in which it needs to be placed.

[Joe Guarino]

The fee structure for the aquatic center was developed doubtless with considerable thought and deliberateness. Why would they have adopted a fee structure that essentially shuts out the poor?

$4 or $5 can be a lot of money for those who are truly poor. $39 per month can be a lot of money for those folks, especially for a recreational pursuit.

Again, when this is supposed to be a public facility, a parks and recreation facility, why are we shutting out the poor? No one has adequately answered that question.

TriadWatch, it is amazing how folks continue to be snowed by the Community Foundation initiative. $25,000 barely covers the cost of one swimming trainer's employee benefits.

[Abner Doon]

Including principal and interest,
and unprofitableness and high maintenence,
this thing is going to cost Greensboro taxpayers
more than $40 million over the next couple decades
all to put heads on beds for those
that enjoy profits at the expense of everyone else.

This is clearly a case of the rich side of town
getting the poor side to pay for what they wanted,
of which the poor kids will benefit very little from,
unless thier parents clean rooms or take the trash out
at the convention center.

[Joe Guarino]

I agree, Abner. This was a detestable project for the city council to approve.

But we have Nancy Vaughan, Robbie Perkins and Zack Matheny to thank for this expensive addition to the Coliseum complex-- undertaken during the worst economic slowdown since the Great Depression.

[Mick]

George,

Still waiting for your analysis and subsequent outrage of the Park and Rec system and/or local libraries. Pick a park George. Your selectivity is fascinating. Do you think poor people are smelly too? Given your criticism of the pool do you think usage should be free to all thus moving the red line further down the slide? Or do you think user fees to be a reasonable tool? Should all municipal facilities be open and free for all to use or should there be user fees, etc? Or just the facilities you and Joe select? How about the Sportsplex? Natural Science Center? Both cost more per visit than the GAC. Selective outrage equals hypocrisy and lesser credibility.

Joe, did I miss your "poor people cant visit the Sportsplex or NSC" post. If I did I apologize.

[Brandon Burgess]

Joe and co, What is your plan to remedy this "situation"?

Would you like to see the GAC demolished? Cut funding to the point that the GAC can not operate?

[Joe Guarino]

It would be great if we could privatize it, Brandon. Get out from under it to the extent we can.

As long as it is a city facility, it should change its pricing so that the poor can afford to use it. The poor are effectively excluded because of the current pricing.

[Mick]

Sportsplex, NSC? I am sure there are others. There are many of lesser fees Grimsley, Lindley Pool, etc.

Joe,
Do you believe user fees are reasonable and expected tools to help with the bottom line of municipally operated facilities or not? Really a simple question.

[Joe Guarino]

Yes, but the fees need to be set at a level that is affordable to the poor. Otherwise you are excluding them... unless, of course, that is the intent from the outset.

[Stephen]

Let's see...Joe says that by charging user fees that are relatively high, the poor are getting screwed, and the public was misled, by the PTB promise of a swim complex that will benefit everybody.

Mick, Grayson, One Hood reply that Joe's a pathetic racist (Roch must be busy today).

Don't get it.

[bubba]

"Don't get it."

Actually, they're the ones who don't get it, Stephen.

[KeepYourHandOutOfMyPocket]

Joe, Thank you for your post on this subject, they are right on the mark. A couple of years ago when the voters had denied the swim elite a bond, I spoke out against the need for the bond and why the tax payers should foot the bill. I was ostracized repeatedly just like you from the swim left. They don't like it when someone disagrees with them. Then the bond issue was planted in a parks & rec bond that the sheep passed and then Matt Brown decided he would take the gold and run. As many of us know, if Matt has anything to do with it, it will not be good for the tax payers of GSO. Also remember that in addition to dues or fees Matt is going to want that parking fee from you.
PS - Joe missed you the last couple of weeks - glad you are back!

[Billy Jones]

Oh, why don't you just go jump in a lake... er, I mean... pool.

[Stormy]

I just love to watch how progressives come-out with the "R" word so quickly, when they do not have any relevant answers or responses to issues. I agree with Stephen, Joe was speaking in support of black children, not against them.

"I take great exception to you projecting your own very near racist bias on to me and other members of the evil swim community." - Mick

Mick, you were the first to throw around the "R" word here, and it is impossible to see how Joe projected a near racist bias on to you and the swim community. I would say, however, that he was suggesting that you and the swim community are pretty elitist. Which you are.

[Tell me more]

Mick, it would be interesting to find out how many Arican Americans swim for GSA? How many African Americans swam in city meet this summer? Are there any African American swim clubs that compete in the city meet?

Why are the second graders regulated to the warm up pool? The powers to be could certainly teach many more students in the large pool. Are they worried about these kids being pottied trained? Or are they just treating these poor second graders as second class citizens? Why shouldn't these kids have the same rights to swim in the large pool as your kid?

[Mick]

Joe,
Is the intent of the Sportsplex and NSC to exclude the poor with the fees at those facilities? You seem to not want to answer the question though repeatedly asked. Ever been to the Sportsplex? It's OK if you dont know. That hasnt stopped you before and certainly didnt with this thread.

Others,
Joe is the one who spoke of riff raff and the unwashed, smelly masses. I find it pathetic that you guys have no problem with that attitude. Joe is assigning rather despicable "feelings", thoughts and attitudes to an entire group of families and children for which he has obvious disdain and absolutely no knowledge. I find it equally pathetic that the peanut gallery here is OK with that. There is no "swim left" that is just a demonstrably silly statement. But it will work here at the "one thought fits all club". I dont give a crap if people disagree with me. Never have. That is a trait most often seen here and at other idealogically based sites. However, Joe's disgusting commentary did and does bother me. And it should you all too. But it didnt and wont and never has. Sad. If you guys prefer not to read between Joe's lines that is fine by me. Of course, I did no better or worse than he by assigning thoughts and feelings but I am the bad guy, huh. Whatever works to prop up your local "good guy". Good ol Joe. I hope he is happy his minions finally pounced to back up his BS. Took awhile this time. No matter what you got his back. Nice of you. Pathetic but nice.

Tell me more,
GSA (as well as other local swim clubs) have only a limited number of African American kids and families. That is and has been an uphill battle. Read much? Of course GSA has been participating in Make a Splash program which is aimed at minorities and lower economic type familes. And there are Miss Betty's kids and unofficial outreach program as well as a few Big Brother/Big Sister types. GSA is, has been and will continue to be proactive in this regard. Oh and GSA participates in the Black Heritage swim meet each year. Anything else? What more would you like to know? The Y Bears has the largest percentage of minority swimmers by far. For the most part, minorities do not swim much... again... read much? Anything ringing a bell here? I have no idea why the second graders are regulated (odd choice of words) to the warm up pool other than it is shallower and probably more condusive to teaching. That is just a guess but it makes a tad more sense than your inane theories. Typing of which... As to your other, stupid, offensive "Do you still beat your wife?" type questions.... Perhaps (much like Joe) you are projecting your thoughts rather than being truly inquisitive? Again, pathetic and rather juvenile. No less than expected from the minions though. Proving once again My good ol Dad's co-opted phrase "There are no stupid questions... just stupid people."

[KeepYourHandOutOfMyPocket]

Once again the tax payers of GSO have to bear the brunt of the special interest groups that has little or no benefit for the majority of the tax payers. "There are no stupid questions... just stupid people." would apply to the voters that passed this boondoggle. No one has mentioned what the aquatic center will cost to maintain each year, but it is a lot of tax payer money. I would like to have a vote to sell the money pit on High Point Rd but I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to buy it.

[bubba]

"I find it pathetic that you guys have no problem with that attitude."

I find it pathetic that you're not bright enough to understand the context in which Joe's comments were made.

Given your history on this and other subjects, no one's really surprised to find that out.

[Joe Guarino]

Mick:

I was opposed to the bond issue for the Natural Science Center. If it were a city-owned parks and recreation facility, then it should not be charging fees that effectively exclude the poor. (But is this not a private facility?)

I was unaware of the matter of the Sportsplex. But if it is a city parks and rec facility, it should not be charging fees that have the effect of excluding the poor.

[Mick]

Joe,
The City owns the land and buildings and the NSC is set up as a non-profit. You can translate that anyway you want (as you always do). Unaware of the Sportsplex?! WOW! Nice of you to be consistantish though ... I guess. Makes one wonder what your real intent in this whole thread has really been now doesnt it? You should come clean and admit your recent feigned concern for the ability of the poor to use the facility is nothing more than your latest anti GAC rant and you really dont give a rats behind. Some of your cohorts may actually believe you and that is quite misleading. Or are you sticking with your new opinion that all city owned facilities should be free or nearly so for all? Narrow down your non-exlusionary pricing stuctures for me will ya? Maybe you should run for office. I am pretty sure that plank would be quite popular with some folks. Of course it is completely at odds with your entire make up as a person but whatever it takes to not admit to being wrong on any one issue, huh? You look silly this go round. You really do.

C'mon what is a reasonable fee at the GAC Joe? Sportsplex? Lindley, Grimsley, etc. You seem to have all the answers. And again, do you want the GAC and other facilities to be as viable as possible or do you want it accessible to ALL? You seem to want it both ways or you have had a dramatic change of heart here very recently. You were better off standing on your real and legit principles. I HAD respect for those and you. Making it up as you go just doesnt work for you as you are really not very good at it.

Bubba,
The context of Joe's comments were assigning thoughts, feelings and attitudes to an entire group of folks (including children) of which Joe is in no way associated at all. Though I'd wager he would be shocked out how many evil, elitist swimmers go to church with him. His offensive, broad brush, stereotypical, UNSUBSTANTIATED BS comments are just WRONG on many levels. Joe knows this but as usual will not admit to being wrong. Typical doctor. He doesnt give a crap about the abilities of poor or blacks to use the GAC or NSC or Sportsplex (of which he was conveniently and blissfully unaware). Thusly, he is flat out lying. He just thought he could throw that BS out to the one minded amen corner and not get called on it. Sorry I didnt play along.

Believe what you want. You guys always do.

[Betty Almond]

Mick, you really need to get a blog of your own instead of posting angry assumptions on someone else's blog. You come on Joe's blog and call him names and accuse him of many things so if you need to vent as much as you seem to, get your own blog and you can express all your opinions for the world to read. There is no need for all the angry words and accusations you have hurled at Joe.

[Mick]

ASSUMPTIONS... Did you read Joe's original comments... and then some of his following comments... sheesh. Give him a pass for his despicable commentary if you wish. I chose not too. And Joe is quite a big boy and he can handle himself. No need for you to lecture me on what I should and shouldnt do here or elsewhere.

I know you guys hate when anyone dare go against the flow here but too bad on this one.

And in this instance yes there was a need for me to respond. Sometimes you cant let BS pass. And continues to do so. How would you interpret Joe's recent insistance that all municipal facilities be free or cheap so as not to exclude the poor (or people who smell differant)? Given his fiscal hawkishness I believe I would call his concerns .... insincere (at best). What say you, Betty?

Believe the best if you wish. That is SOP here and to some extent admirable.

Also typical... telling people who dare disagree to go elsewhere. Amen... Yes. Yes.

[Mick]

Oh and BTW...

Maybe some of you should follow Joe's GAC links to find out exactly how "unaffordable" the pricing structure is. Per visit rates include $10 for a family of four. Group rates at $1 and $2 per. $3-$5 per visit for most folks. Anybody really have an issue with that pricing? Really? Man up... answer.

And Joe, The full GAC membership includes excercise equipment, cardio, etc as well as the pools. Just an FYI. I still wouldnt pay it but some will.

[Mick]

I will leave you all with a reminder of EXACTLY what Joe said.

"These membership fees and daily use fees serve an important purpose, besides revenue generation. They will help keep out what the swim community will regard as "riff-raff". " Joe Gaurino

"If there were lots of poor people using the facility, the swim community would be subjected to lots of people around them who look different than they do, act different than they do, and perhaps even smell different than they do." Joe Gaurino

Nice guy that Joe G. Real nice.

[Harold]

Joe is absolutely correct. No undesireables welcome here. Come one, come all if you're part of the Northwest crowd. You can swim in peace without having to rub elbows with the riff - raff of society. This isn't no all community is welcome gig. Nothing more than a venue to serve the GSO elite.

[Mick]

So do you think all municipal facilities should be free or just swimming at GAC? Fishing and Boat rentals at City Lakes? Renting Shelters at parks? Swimming or golfing at Bur-Mil? How about The Sportsplex? Natural Science Center?

$10 for four doesnt seem that unreasonable. Seems kind of in line or even below most of the above. How does that support your theory here? How does the CVM location support your theory? Or is this just a belief with no real facts just a gut?

[Dan]

Right on Mick. This blog smells. I wish I was a patient of Dr Guarono so that I could look him in the eye and fire him.

[Harold]

This project was marketed as a community friendly center open to all regardless of income. There were questions raised about this issue during the campaign. Now it turns out, it's primarily being marketed to attract major swim meets and the nobodies of the immediate neighborhood be damned.

[Mick]

Harold,

Not exactly. The bond language called for a pool facility suitable for regional competitive events. It has always been a competitive facility to be used by rec swimmers and not the other way around. Though I have always shared the concerns about resident usage I think you are jumping to conclusions you want to with zero evidence and little other than your feelings to back up your claims. The thing isnt even open yet. I do believe we need to hold the Staff's feet to the fire on being as aggressive toward the community rec users as they are toward buiness users (swim meets, events) There is plenty of room for simultaneuos usage during the week. There will be some downtime on swim meet weekends I suppose but I am not clear on that. It will take a great effort by the Staff and some effort by the residents (and some time) to work all this out. I hope, as I always have, that the GAC is so busy that REC and Business interests are difficult to balance. That would be a good thing.

BTW, You seem to have skipped a couple of the questions I asked. Perhaps it is an oversight.

[Steve]

Actually Mick, the Natural Science Center does offer free admission to city residents one day a month. They do stop the free day when big exhibits are in (like now with Titanic). They always offer discounted prices to city residents.

If GAC is reaching out to the city’s need of learning to swim (as promoted) then why not offer a discount for being a city resident. Or offer a free day once a month. Also, the city bus service charges half price for people on Medicaid. Couldn’t GAC reach more “people in need” by offering 50% off to those on Medicaid?

One pool story states: “The program (learn to swim) will also build character traits, such as courage and perseverance”.
The city had another program years ago that encouraged social and physical activity. But when certain “character traits” started showing up in the upper and middle class neighborhoods, the city cut down every basketball goal from every park court they could find.

There are many ways to control a situation and money is definatlly one of them.

[Steve]

Mick, you state “The bond language called for a pool facility suitable for regional competitive events. It has always been a competitive facility to be used by rec swimmers and not the other way around.”

I disagree completely. To me, the title “Parks and Recreation” trumps the words “suitable for” competition.
Just because I buy a vehicle suitable for off-road conditions does not mean its intended life will be off-road.