The screaming headline on the front page of the News and Record directs attention to a story that describes Keith Holliday's appearance in east Greensboro last night. It is apparent that the east Greensboro political establishment is trying to use the landfill issue in anticipation of the fall city council elections. They perceive they have lost control of our city council, and they want it back. And former Mayor Holliday is decidedly on their side.
His open threat to Jim Kee-- that he would lose his seat if he does not oppose greater use of the landfill-- was detestable. But how could he make good on such a threat? Of course, the Simkins endorsement is the primary vehicle.
Readers might ask how Holliday might have influence over the Simkins endorsement. But we need to remember the historic Melderec con Simkins coalition. Hollliday's statements about the landfill limiting development in east Greensboro are excessive. But they lend credence to the suspicion that the Melderec crowd has its development interests in mind when it continues to advocate for White Street being closed to residential trash.
In any case, the ugly public threat Holliday delivered might be surprising to some. But I was not surprised. Although he seemed to be well-liked as mayor, a politician does not produce a prolonged series of 9-0 votes on the city council by acting like a choir boy. Few of us have seen the real Keith Holliday, behind closed doors or on the telephone.
I keep thinking about the 2007 election season. Holliday was not running for re-election, but he expressed public concern that the GPD fiasco was going to influence the election outcome. Then I started hearing some things through the grapevine. I was hearing from a couple of sources that he was collaborating with the Simkins PAC with respect to the machine endorsements. And I was hearing the PAC's primary municipal objective was the funding of the civil rights museum. In any event, I cannot confirm what I was hearing back then; but the museum was funded by the city during 2008.
Holliday and the rest of the city council sold Greensboro taxpayers down the river when they closed the landfill to residential trash. Cities all across the United States operate landfills; and there is no reason White Street cannot be managed well to minimize impacts to surrounding areas. There is no reason it should limit development over the entirety of east Greensboro which is a very wide geographic area. Holliday is acting like a demagogue.
One last point. A couple of council members were present at last night's meeting. But one council member who apparently was not present will nonetheless be the likely beneficiary of Holliday's political efforts in east Greensboro-- Robbie Perkins.
I am for reopening of the landfill. Buy some houses and relocate some folks to create a larger buffer if we have too. Do proposed/promised? road work to alleviate some traffic concerns, etc. Do all we can (that makes sense) but reopen. It is best for greater common good. Kee and many others will have interesting decisions to make going forward.
Why was Holliday's threat detestable? Doesn't he have the same rights as you or I?
I dont get the indignation over Holliday threatening Kee with his seat. Isnt that how it works? Hold meetings, hold signs, raise money and threaten politicians with their seat. SOP for PACS and even grass roots movements isn't it? Don't the citizens of that area have the right to complain and march and protest and vote in or out their politicians of their choosing? Seems that is what they are doing. Just seems they are doing what they should be doing.
BTW, "nearly 100 people" isnt exactly a sweeping groundswell of support. Maybe more to come later.
Doesn't C4GC do the same type things? Has C4GC ever publically threatened/targeted a pol with his/her seat? I really dont know the answer to that. Just wondering what would be the difference.
Posted by: Mick | February 01, 2011 at 11:34 AM
God forbid politics enters into politics; what will the country come to with politicians threatening or boasting of election outcomes as a way to get other politicians to do what they want. If so detestable on local level, I am glad it doesn't happen on national level. Because that would be bad no matter what politician did it.
Posted by: Foreclosure Attorney | February 01, 2011 at 12:00 PM
If C4GC or anyone else who wants the landfill to re-open isn't getting their act together on this issue and lining up votes they better start. It is clear this is going to be a big issue with those that want it to stay closed and continue to waste everyone's money.
I think if the people of Gboro saw in front of them on a mailing or something the cost of not re-opening vs the savings of re-opening the landfill it might motivate a few more to get out and vote. Times are too tough to continue to waste money. You would think East Greensboro would realize this is costing them a fortune too regardless of what the powers that be are telling them.
Posted by: Arch Stanton | February 01, 2011 at 12:02 PM
Where is the cost analysis people are relying on to form their opinions?
Posted by: Roch101 | February 01, 2011 at 12:13 PM
There is no doubt, Arch, that many east Greensboro residents pay property taxes. Many own homes; and those who do not pay property taxes indirectly through the rent they pay. They pay sales taxes. East Greensboro residents pay more because the landfill is closed to residential trash. In fact, as a proportion of their expendable income, they might be paying more to ship trash out of town than residents from West Greensboro. Why? Because they have less expendable income.
I think the spectre of a former mayor, widely thought of as being a nice guy, openly threatening a sitting council member is downright awful. It is beyond the limits of acceptable discourse for a former mayor, and a major breach of etiquette. Of course, we do not know how often these types of threats were communicated by phone and behind closed doors in the past.
Posted by: Joe Guarino | February 01, 2011 at 12:34 PM
The City of Greensboro is looking to make $18 million in cuts.
Those are jobs.
If the landfill can be reopened to limit job loss, how can what arguments for leaving it closed overcome what we will already witness with the jobs lost because of the swimming pool etc...?
$18 million / $50k per year = 360 jobs.
Not counting what the county and the school system has to cut.
Where was the basic math in their rhetoric?
Maybe when we start firing police and firemen, and crime and fires increase because some moved near an operating land fill and other higher end residents wanted everyone else to pay for thier kids to have a nicer place to get wet.
Posted by: George Hartzman | February 01, 2011 at 01:37 PM
George, thanks for putting the fiscal math in perspective. More black city employees are at risk of losing their jobs if the landfill does not reopen to residential trash. More black city employees are at risk of losing their jobs because of the aquatic center.
Posted by: Joe Guarino | February 01, 2011 at 02:26 PM
What are the job loss estimates for keeping parks and marinas open to the public? I've felt for years we have a few too many libraries. How about public baseball fields, soccer fields, etc. They too are a monetary drain. Right? Or do you just get to pick and choose?
Has C4GC ever threatened or targeted a politician or city or county employee with their job?
I see a little more of Joe's point about former Mayor Holliday but I am not sure I agree.
Posted by: Mick | February 01, 2011 at 02:49 PM
Mick your point is well taken about other Parks and Recreation facilities. I am unaware of C4GC issuing any open verbal threats against a specific official. Citizens working against the reelection of an elected official with whom they disagree is part of the democratic process.
Posted by: Joe Guarino | February 01, 2011 at 02:55 PM
Holy Cow.
Headlines like that above the fold in ginormous sized fonts should be reserved for events like V-J Day, not the gathering of a couple dozen folks protesting against the re-opening of a landfill that should have never been closed in the first place. If cost of ink, as you say, is a consideration JR, then you sure wasted some $$$ on that one but I guess your biases overcame sound fiscal management priciples. You are sitting on the next multi level parking lot of the near future. Good thing you collected on the over appraised Canada dry property golden goose.
Posted by: the shadow | February 01, 2011 at 03:23 PM
Joe, even if you are a former Mayor.
Shadow, thought the same thing. "nearly 100 people" Cmon Man!
Posted by: Mick | February 01, 2011 at 04:53 PM
Mick, I expect former mayors to be statesmanlike, not to be harsh partisans issuing open threats.
Shadow, I don't begrudge the paper covering this somewhat prominently; but the placement and prominence did seem disproportionate. This is consistent with the recent local focus, however, and it was the biggest local news story of the day. I hope citizens arguing for conservative outcomes are given the same placement and prominence. Holliday acting foolishly, as he did, probably gave it greater news value.
Posted by: Joe Guarino | February 01, 2011 at 05:09 PM
He appears passionate about this issue. I think he is dead wrong but passionate. I dont really have a problem with what he did or said but I do see your point. I dont know the tone of the statements so I dont know if I would see him as harsh or statesmenlike or neither or even both.
Posted by: Mick | February 01, 2011 at 06:15 PM
This issue is evidence that this city is being run by retards!
What, close the dump and the trash just disappears?
Same kind of logic that says if you have 10 million you can spend 20 million.
Politicians... can we put THEM in the landfill?
My case, for example, I live in eastern Guilford county in McLeansville. THERE IS NO TRASH SERVICE (unless you pay for it out of pocket... so what are property taxes for again?)!
When I moved out here, I relied on a quarterly trip to the White st. landfill to dispose of my household garbage.
Now, I have to take my rickety trailer all the way across the county to the airport... through the city because the trailer's max speed is 40mph... the irony, I PASS THE WHITE St LANDFILL ON THE WAY OUT!
Aside from the inconvenience, it's expensive and aggravates everyone else in traffic.
I suppose I could take a few bags at a time but taking a trip across the county (26 miles!!!) just to dispose of a few bags of garbage is NOT an option and I will NOT dump illegally.
Point being, I pay a bit over a grand in county taxes and get NOTHING in return!
Why not reopen the landfill to household waste?
While they are at it, PUT A RECYCLING CENTER OUT THERE... something NOT done at the airport collection center (much to my disappointment when I showed up with half a dozen each XL sorted out cans, glass, plastic, etc.).
Here's the kicker, A RECYCLING CENTER WOULD GREATLY REDUCE THE VOLUME GOING IN THE GROUND -AND- OFFSET THE COST OF OPERATION BY SELLING THE MATERIALS COLLECTED!!!
But then again, I'm just some peon citizen and not some wise great politician like those running this circus.
Posted by: EricX | February 01, 2011 at 06:30 PM
Eric, move to the city, pay city taxes, then you can offer you input on city issues. Until then, little sympathy for a guy who avoids city taxes but expects to avail himself of its public services.
Posted by: Roch101 | February 01, 2011 at 06:34 PM
Oh, I'm sorry Roch101, do YOU not receive services paid for by MY tax dollars?
Seems my Guilford County taxes also pay for some City of Greensboro services as well.
Oh yea, I "avoid city taxes"... what a lame chump statement! WOW! Sorry if I bought my home away from your ineptly run city (that I lived in for well over 15 years). So, want to compare property tax bills?
Oh, and as for "public services" I PAY PER POUND FOR SERVICES AT THE LANDFILL... do YOU pay per pound for YOUR trash pickup?
I pay county property tax AND pay the city for my trash so don't think I get anything for free from the city of Greensboro!
Posted by: EricX | February 01, 2011 at 07:19 PM
Umm... you do know that city residents pay county taxes too, right?
You wouldnt have to pay by the pound either if you paid the private trash service, right?
Your property taxes are for sheriff, schools, etc.
What services exactly do you think county residents pay for that city residents use but dont pay for?
Posted by: Mick | February 01, 2011 at 09:38 PM
What services exactly do you think city residents pay for that county residents use but dont pay for?
Posted by: mstred336 | February 02, 2011 at 05:14 AM
My post was in response to EricX "Oh, I'm sorry Roch101, do YOU not receive services paid for by MY tax dollars? Seems my Guilford County taxes also pay for some City of Greensboro services as well."
But , City Parks come to mind and one might ask why I pay the same amount to get into CVM, pools, etc as you do?
Posted by: Mick | February 02, 2011 at 07:28 AM
"Oh, I'm sorry Roch101, do YOU not receive services paid for by MY tax dollars?" -- EricX
No, not that I don't also pay for. You see, I pay County AND City taxes, you pay ONLY County taxes, so it is ridiculous to hear you whine about the city not providing you the services you think it should. Petition the City to annex you, then you can participate with legitimacy.
Posted by: Roch101 | February 02, 2011 at 08:02 AM
mstred336 says: "What services exactly do you think city residents pay for that county residents use but dont pay for?"
The Greensboro Coliseum, for one. And I'll continue to lobby for the investors of that complex to be treated differently than the non investors.
Joe, I got a chance to talk to Holliday today in person for about a half hour on his recent comments. I had tried to comprehend his motivation. I pointed out my surprise that his rear end was still intact after last night's council meeting. He's convinced that geographically this is the only area for Greensboro to expand. I thought he meant commercially but he stated he was speaking about residential growth. He also told me he had apologized to Jim Kee and he was using D3, D4, and D5 as an example on a board and indicated the comments were taken out of context. I hope he conveys that to current council members. I'm still pondering what role your favorite mayoral candidate might have here. Maybe to motivate east Greensboro to go to the polls in November?
Posted by: Tony Wilkins | February 03, 2011 at 12:51 AM
Sorry Joe, I should have read your entire post before commenting. Your last paragraph indicates we may have the same suspicions.
Posted by: Tony Wilkins | February 03, 2011 at 01:02 AM
Wow, some really self-centered jerks on here!
I don't get street lights out here, street sweepers, bus service and a buttload of other city crap I don't care to have. I don't have kids so the schools aren't much to me and the Sheriff is useless unless you particularly like "reports" when your house is broken into because they sure as hell don't do much investigation! Don't care for the Coliseum or parks... don't see $10 parking as worth it and I got all the nature I want in my back yard.
Not sure what I really get for my tax money out here.
Greensboro plans on annexing us whether we like it or not... despite all the residence out here resisting annexation, the greed capital of NC (highest taxes in the state - fact) plans to do it anyway.
That aside, why are some of you so anal about county residents (those of us who pay for use by the pound) being able to access a landfill?
Seriously, maybe it's because some of you take garbage disposal for granted because you can put it on the curb or shove it down a drain.
Some of us out here have relied on the White st. Landfill to dispose of our trash for generations!
Why the resistance to reopening it to residential trash?
Some of you really amaze me!
Oh, and I'm quite aware you pay county taxes as well... I grew up in Greensboro and paid taxes as an adult there for over 15 years! And in all that time I never bitched about county residents paying to dispose of their waste in that landfill!
Some of you are pathetic!
Well quit bitching when I burn my paper trash and leaves, ok?
Posted by: EricX | February 03, 2011 at 05:33 AM
For the record...
I was also recently annexed into the city.
I paid the private service. Apparently, so can you.
I am for re-opening the landfill.
Here is one I dont know... did city and county residents pay the same rates at the White Street landfill or did county only types pay more?
Posted by: Mick | February 03, 2011 at 07:41 AM
Tony, I think there can be little doubt that the political maneuvers in east Greensboro are ALL ABOUT the 2011 City Council elections and Perkins' mayoral bid.
Posted by: Joe Guarino | February 03, 2011 at 08:23 AM
Mick, private citizens pay over four times per pound/ton than the city.
According to the city's own website "$9 per ton of trash to ship the waste to another Landfill outside of the county" (all GSO's trash goes to stink up Uwharrie/Montgomery County) and for the Greensboro Solid Waste Transfer Station on Burnt Poplar rd. it costs us county peons $41 per ton (White st was only $31 per ton).
I'm not saying to open it fully but allowing city and county residents to continue to use it to dispose of household waste would not only be a benefit for them/us but also pay for the maintenance of the site through the traditional "pay for use".
Again, closing the landfill for those who get their garbage picked up by the city and hauled off somewhere else may not seem like a big deal but to those in the county who relied on that landfill to safely dispose of household waste it becomes a serious burden.
The alternatives are pay an even higher rate from the monopoly of Republic Waste or dump illegally.
Posted by: EricX | February 03, 2011 at 03:38 PM
Tony Wilkins said "The Greensboro Coliseum, for one. And I'll continue to lobby for the investors of that complex to be treated differently than the non investors."
Tony,residents of Guilford County DO support the coliseum, as do residents of every other county and state. Should they decide to attend an event, they pay the coliseums ticket prices,concession prices, and parking prices.
As far as the "investors" being treated differently than the "non-investors": You are being treated differently. YOU get to make up the operating deficits.
The City of Greensboro recieves the revenue from the coliseums events. WHY should the residents of Guilford or any other county be asked to make up any deficits due to coliseum/city mismanagement?
Posted by: mstred336 | February 05, 2011 at 02:15 PM
"The City of Greensboro recieves the revenue from the coliseums events."
Really? What happened to that revenue?
I thought it went to the Coliseum's periodical operating staement, where it then disappears because the place operates at a loss. And, as you told us, the Colesium operates at a loss.
Non city residents have no liability for the loss. Non Greensboro residents' taxes do not go toward covering the loss incurred at the Coliseum.
The real question is why the citizens of Our Fair City continue to put up with the.....questionable acts, dubious interaction, and general poor performance......found in a most egregious example of our local Business As Usual.....mindset.
(Readers will note that I've refrained from using the more specific and more accurate words in describing the situation.)
Posted by: bubba | February 05, 2011 at 03:12 PM
EricX you have more to add to this conversation than Roach whose basis for his contribution to this conversation likely consists of having to roll his trash can to the curb. For the record you are right. Those from non incorporated areas who hauled a load to the landfill had to stop at the little window and pay a significant fee. Those fees plus those from Republic served to make the landfill profitable for the city. I have no idea what the numbers look like to reopen it vs continuing to truck it to Montgomery Co, but having 2 properties, both now in the city (one in the most recent annexation west of town), I can say that it was cheaper to pay the higher fee than to pay the city property tax rate and have garbage pick up included.
The myth that the city was wanting merely to deliver services to the close by areas is only to word smith what was a pure tax grab. Those places that paid extra for garbage service and for water and sewer in areas like the Cardinal more than covered their cost. People in those areas have been referred to as moochers by some in city circles, but actually more than paid their way. I can't wait to see if this legislature is going to rectify the unjust North Carolina annexation laws.
Posted by: Roger Greene | February 05, 2011 at 04:05 PM
"Non city residents have no liability for the loss. Non Greensboro residents' taxes do not go toward covering the loss incurred at the Coliseum."
Exactly.
That's why I said the "investors" (city residents) get treated differently than the "non-investors" (non city residents)...they get to make up the operating deficits.
Exactly as it should be.
Posted by: mstred336 | February 06, 2011 at 12:44 AM
I think Tony is referring to City residents should perhaps be paying less per event (probably just parking) at CVM than non-city residents to reflect city tax dollars supporting the CVM. Seems fair to me. Same goes for higher fees/rates for landfill, city water, parks, pools, marinas. In some instances this does occur (water, landfill) and some not.
Since city residents pay for and subsidize CVM it makes sense to me that non-residents pay and extra buck or two here and there. Though implementing that idea may well be tough.
Roger, does not your new tax rate include more than garbage pick up? How about water/sewer? Did that go down by half or were you one of the unfortunates with well and/or septic tanks? We were annexed in and came close to breaking even and obtained a few more services.
Posted by: Mick | February 06, 2011 at 08:17 AM
City residents pay separate water and sewer bills in addition to the taxes. Some of the western areas of the '08 annexation paid higher water and sewer rates and separately for garbage service. However, my recently annexed rental is on well and septic tank. I know after taking my city water bill at my primary home and doubling it, which is what friends living in the Cardinal told me they paid (double that of city residents), then including the garbage service from Republic waste services there is no contest as to how much I pay. Taxes inclusive of garbage far exceed what I was paying when doing those items separately.
My main point was more about the land fill and the fees from non city residents as it pertained to the profitability of it though. The idea that someone who used the landfill had no business commenting because they're supposedly not a stake holder is absurd.
Posted by: Roger Greene | February 07, 2011 at 01:48 PM