My Conversation with Amos Quick About Tasers and SRO's

A couple of commenters here have noted the story this week regarding our esteemed Guilford County Board of Education and the fights associated with Eastern Guilford High School.

Both Doug Clark and Sam Hieb have done a good job of posting on this topic.

Several months ago, I received an e-mail from school board member Amos Quick, who had seen one of my posts.  It was apparent he wanted to speak with me, so I gave him a call.

It was obvious that Mr. Quick wanted to communicate his justifications for the positions he has taken on the matter of Tasers and SRO's.  He explained to me that, in the course of his position with the Salvation Army, he has had the occasion to direct and oversee programs that serve teenage boys.  He said these boys sometimes become unruly; and he is certain there are effective techniques to defuse these situations without having to resort to the types of measures that the county school system has taken.  He had seen it within his own domain.

I have to admit that the conversation momentarily became just a bit contentious, on both sides.

But he also had an interesting perspective about the phenomenon of teen-age boys becoming disruptive or even violent in the school setting.  It was his contention that this was partially rooted in the fact that some of these boys cannot do the school work.  Frustration and anger over their failure builds, and it becomes manifest in other ways.

I countered that perhaps this is an argument for more vocational education.  In the recent past, the public school establishment has been resistant to the concept of returning to the old vocational tracks offered to certain students.  I think this is a big mistake, because not every student is going to succeed in college.

I emphasized with Mr. Quick that I felt it was necessary for school board members, and the school system, to place primacy on the need to maintain a safe environment in the schools-- not to protect individual students from police officers and from discipline.

I suggested to him that perhaps he might consider directing his focus to the question of whether tasers are being used safely, and whether officers are properly trained in their use.  I had posted about this topic previously:

(T)here is a "standard of practice" for police professionals that the electric shock not be discharged for more than 5 seconds, and no more than three times. 

I know that this debate is fraught with racial overtones.  There has certainly been a tendency in the African-American political community to act in a manner that is suspicious of the use of police force, particularly when white officers might be involved; and also to protect black students from discipline.  That is a nationwide phenomenon-- it is not just here in Greensboro.

I notice that Mr. Quick now seems to be leading this public discussion; and Deena Hayes may have faded more into the background after her hands seem to have been caught in the cookie jar with the hotel deal.

What these two school board members need to consider-- and in fact what all school board members and administrators need to consider-- is that black students are just as terrorized by the threat of school violence as white students.  Well-behaving black students who are motivated to learn have just as much of a right to a safe, productive learning environment as white students.

Doug Clark is correct that this needs to be an issue in the upcoming school board elections.  But the task of creating safer schools is a daily battle-- and the question is whether we choose to wage that battle every day.

Comments

[jaycee]

If you take away from police officers the tools they need to protect students in a school setting then you are providing them with LESS protection than what the public gets.
The role of the SRO is not to punish students; it’s to protect students from outsiders who may prey on them and to take police action on students who break the law. The laws for the use of force are the same inside a school as they are outside in the public arena.
Don’t students and teachers deserve the same level of safety at school as we enjoy on the outside?

[Stormy]

It is interesting, indeed, that Quick justifies some violence will occur from youths who are in school and can not do the work. This is a very interesting admission. I just do not see how given that perspective, those youths can be permitted to remain in the traditional schools. Whether it be conventional school or whatever, those students need to be identified and removed from the schools for the safety of other students and staff. At a minimum, put those students in a remediation program in a separate school. I know that they deserve an "equal opportunity" for an education, but that does not mean it has that they have to be mainstreamed. We have advanced learning opportunities for advanced learners, we need to have schools for those that are not able to do the school work at the level of other students.

[Jeff Deal]

My wife teaches a career/technical education course (Scientific Visualization) at Eastern Guilford High. Virtually all of her students are engaged in her courses; the vast majority of conduct issues she encounters are outside the classroom (corridors, common areas, et al.).

[Stormy]

My memory telsl me that Sam Hieb had a column on a similar matter as this in the Forsyth County Schools not long ago. I think that the issue there was similar; they were keeping problem students in school, as the experts said that they deserved an education, even though they represented a safety threat. Perhaps, Sam can shed some light on that one.

[buzzman]

Amos Quick is comparing the salvation Army programs with the public schools - apples & oranges. He and some of his cronies appear to be in favor of keeping unruly students in class regardless of how much disruption they cause. This is certainly not fair to those students of ALL races who wish to learn.
We are long past the point where teachers and principals were able to maintain order. Thus SROs and their tools which rightly include tasers. By not supporting SROs, Quick & company are sending the wrong message to students regarding law enforcement.
In speaking with folks who have children in the schools, they tell me that their kids like the SROs and have great respect for them. Of course, I haven't spoken with any of the parents of those who create the problems. Obviously the opposite attitudes exist.
If GC school board members were really interested in improving all aspects of the educational process, they would sort out those students who are troublemakers and put them all in a separate school. Unfortunately, Quick and the supporters of his viewpoint would put up a real fight to prevent such a thing because that segment would consist of mostly black students. They are extremely short-sighted in not realizing that those unruly students are creating problems for ambitious students of their own race.
In watching parts of the school board meetings, Deena Hayes often brings up the fact that there are disproportional numbers of black students who do poorly in their academics. She doesn't seem to have a clue as to the reasons, because she is in denial.
Side Note: Mo Green seemed to be extremly bored and annoyed during all the back & forth of the last GCSB meeting. It would not surprise me to see him "head on down the road" in the near future.

[Joe Guarino]

Buzzman, I think you are right that it is an apples-and-oranges comparison. The county schools system is obliged by OSHA to maintain a safe working environment for its teachers, administrators and staff. Kids are required by law to go to school. There is a higher obligation to maintain safety because of these factors; and people generally spend much more time in schools than they do in youth centers.

I agree more students likely need to be permanently removed from the usual classroom environment. Better vocational offerings is a better option. Separate school environments for students who have disciplinary problems are also needed to a greater extent. The black political community opposes this, and will resist until the alternative setting achieves a lofty set of standards they will tend to preach. I saw that discussed at one of the school board forums. By making it harder to use alternative settings, they make it more likely the disciplinary problems will remain in the standard classroom.

Another point is that there tends to be insufficient focus on the serious nature of the behavior demonstrated by the students who are transgressors. By criticizing the school system or the SRO's or the use of tasers, it deflects attention from the students' egregious behavior that triggers the whole debate.

Stormy and Jaycee, thanks and I agree for the most part. And Jeff, thanks for the information also.

[Bubba]

"By criticizing the school system or the SRO's or the use of tasers, it deflects attention from the students' egregious behavior that triggers the whole debate."

And also deflects attention away from the underlying cause of it all: The disastrous breakdown of the black family's place in society, something most of the deniers/enablers of bad behavior in schools refuse to acknowledge.

Ah, but what do we know? We're all racists anyway, right?

[Joe Guarino]

Bubba, the breakdown of the black family is a major problem, and I believe a major contributor. But I wonder whether, in a school like Eastern, the breakdown of the white family might be a contributor as well. Divorce has been an issue for a long time, but the kids currently in school were born at a time when it became increasingly fashionable and acceptable for people of all races to have kids out-of-wedlock.

[Jack Hart]

I get so tired of hearing the worn out, "Well he/she didn't have a daddies presence in the home growing up...so it's OK that they maim/shoot/rape/steal/do drugs/fight, etc."
It comes down to right and wrong, we all know deep down what it is! We have let the 'Feely goods' of the world stop us from giving a good old butt 'whippin' when needed!
I went to Northeast Middle and High as well as Page...when I acted up I got the paddle. Did not hurt my self esteam one little bit! (Hurt the crap out of my butt though...come to think of it...I do not recall repeating the same transgression twice!)
Jack

[Joe Guarino]

Jack, I agree, but the statistics show that kids from single parent families are much more likely to get into trouble. Having a father in the home provides an added measure of discipline and control and accountability for teenage boys.

[Cyndy Hayworth]

Joe:

I teach at the SCALES School every Thursday. This school is for students who have been suspended from school for long terms...sometimes all year. I have a class of all 9th grade boys. The majority of them are sent to the SCALES School for discipline problems (verbal and fighting). I am not sure of the exact stats, but my guess would be that 99% of the boys in my classes are minority students.

There is an exercise I do(outside) with the class to try and give them a visualization as to the direction their life is taking. They stand on a horizontal line and they take steps forward or backwards depending on the answer to the questions. For example: I say, "If you have two parents in the home, take a step forward." Most of the time, no one moves on that question. I say, "If you have more than 5 books in your home, take a step forward." Usually no one moves on that one either. After a series of about 25 statements/questions most of the students are taking steps backwards instead of forward. This visual is very telling. I then encourage them to "run" to a tree in the distance (signifying a finish line). Some run and some don't. When I ask the ones who did not run "why?" They give answers like, "I didn't feel like it, or who cares, or I can't win anyway."

The findings for me over the past two years at the SCALES are:

1. Most of these students live with their grandmothers.
2. Most of them are absolutely starving for attention.
3. Most of them read at a second grade level or below
4. The majority of them have an "uncle" who is their role model...even though he may be in prison or sell drugs.
5. Most of them seem to accept that their lives will always be a struggle because of their environment and that they can be disrespectful and violent in order to get the attention (good or bad) they are lacking.

[John Amberg]

Amos Quick is a good guy. I used to work in the same building as him when he was on the 102 Jamz morning show and I was an account executive for WQMG. I know Amos's heart is in the right place. He's dedicating his life to what he believes in, and he is truly working to make a difference in the lives of disadvantaged youths. I respect him greatly for that.

While it is fair game to question B.J. Barnes's motives for releasing the details of the three fights at Eastern High, all of us parents who have children currently enrolled in Guilford County high schools (or will soon have)need to know the full extent of the situation. I think the Guilford County Schools do an appallingly bad job of keeping parents informed of issues of violence in the high schools. Another recent example is the sexual assault of a female student at Page High School. Parents need to know what is going on. Three fights in one week, with an assault on a teacher and a drug bust at Eastern is news, regardless of how or when it is revealed.

Perhaps Amos Quick was dismayed at the release of this news because it does not support his argument to have SRO's removed from schools. But facts are facts. Violence is a problem at Guilford County Schools. The former principal at Page High School suffered a broken hip at a football game attempting to break up a fight. There is a depressingly long track record of teachers being assaulted on school grounds. There is an even longer track record of students being victimized by violent behavior.

I am all for finding new and different solutions to try to solve this problem. But while we are attempting to solve them, there needs to be SRO's on campus to ensure the safety of both students and faculty. As tax-paying citizens whose children spend six hours a day in Guilford County Schools, we should demand nothing less.

[Brenda Bowers]

The fol;lowing needs repeating again and again and again until it finally is understood! Nothing, absolutely nothing will be or can be done for these young people Black, White or Blue until we adults understand these facts:

The findings for me over the past two years at the SCALES are:

1. Most of these students live with their grandmothers.
2. Most of them are absolutely starving for attention.
3. Most of them read at a second grade level or below
4. The majority of them have an "uncle" who is their role model...even though he may be in prison or sell drugs.
5. Most of them seem to accept that their lives will always be a struggle because of their environment and that they can be disrespectful and violent in order to get the attention (good or bad) they are lacking.

Posted by: Cyndy Hayworth | February 28, 2010 at 08:52 AM

[Joe Guarino]

Cyndy, what you relate is very sad... almost tragic. Some of these situations, absent long-term intervention by a consistent Godly father figure and/or family, seem almost intractable. But what is clear is that many of these kids are not suitable for the standard classroom setting. I really appreciate your service at SCALES, but the black political community seems to feel it is insufficient as an alternative setting. What, then, do we do with these kids?

Some of them simply are not capable of higher level school work. As I noted in the post, for some, a vocational program is going to be much more suitable. But fixing the home environment is much more challenging.

John, I understand and acknowledge what you say about Amos Quick based on what you know about him personally. I also happen to agree with the remainder of your post. But we need to understand that the schools are not safe even WITH SRO's. The SRO's help provide a means of intervention when things happen. Their presence probably prevents some incidents from occurring. But the hard work of making the schools safer and more orderly also requires a completely different administrative approach by the school system.

[Stormy]

The question that begs answering is why do the five findings advanced by Cyndy exist, and why so prominently? It is obvious that these are results of the breakdown of the nucleus family in American life that has occurred over the past several decades. While Cyndy suggests, at least from her personal experience, that these barriers to education exist primarily in the minority community. It is true that it is too common in the minority communities, but it is increasingly common in the white community as well. We had a discussion about "families" here recently, and Brandon asked what defined a "family". Good question. It appears that certain elements of our society have done a good job of breaking-down the traditional family in America, and we are seeing the grisly results play-out.

I read a statistic a few years ago that America was approaching the status that 1 in 2 children would be born into, and grow up in a home, headed by a single parent. This isn't going to end well.

[Joe Guarino]

I agree, Stormy. And the public schools are one of the places where we are seeing the consequences. The question is what we need to do about the problem in the schools to manage it so kids and staff can feel safe and teach and learn. And we do need to manage it.

[Beelzebubba]

unfortunately, the protection racket in the US is the same outfit that has the monopoly on violence. If you don't believe it, try and defend yourself from them, even if it's the wrong name and address on the warrant. Educrats have the monopoly on convincing children that this is a republic under God. Sometimes kids get distracted and forget who owns them.

[Cyndy Hayworth]

Joe:

I absolutely agree that a vocational setting for most of these students would be a better alternative. The students that give me an indication of what they are interested in are:

Car repairs
Construction work
Electrical work
Computer game design
Computer graphics

Some of these students are NOT ignorant and most of them are very street smart. Even in the SCALES school setting, they are constantly jockeying for position...they want to be the big man or the baddest male in the class. The students that come to the school that are NOT minority find themselves in an environment that they are very uncomfortable. They are truly afraid and they usually do not come back after they have completed their stint for the wrong they have done. Some of the minority students come back year-after-year with no desire to better themselves or try to make their lives better in any way.

You are right...it is very sad. I have left that school on numerous occasions in tears!

[Brandon]

Stormy is on to something. As I read through these posts, two concepts keep jumping out at me: family and future. If teenagers can understand why it is so important to care about their future and be made to understand that they do have opportunities to make a better life for themselves, that is all the incentive they need to behave.

It's very hard for kids to get into that mindset when they lack support from their family or if they do not have examples to follow.

[Joe Guarino]

Thanks again, Cyndy.

Some other disciplines:

Heating and Air
Plumbing
Machining
Welding

Get them involved in an intensive ROTC-based program, if you can get them to do it. Build a program teaching them to be firefighters. Offer programs that get them certified in these various occupations.

It makes little sense that these kids are being forced into an academic track that will usually do nothing for them, and that they will not complete.

Instead, give them a marketable skill. Teach them a work ethic and entrepreneurship.

[Joe Guarino]

Some great comments, Brandon.

Other potential careers: truck driving, and running cables for computers and cable TV. Train them, for instance, to drive a truck during senior year, if you can get them to that point.

[Jack Hart]

Joe, the truck driving sounds good, however they will be stuck pretty much driving straight trucks until age 21...and then it would be hard to find a company that allows 21-year olds to drive their trucks.
(You can drive a semi at 18, just in the state, not outside which precludes most companies.)
Jack

[Joe Guarino]

Maybe it could give them a career path to which they could look forward, Jack. If their income is limited from age 18-21 by virtue of only being able to drive certain kinds of trucks, then perhaps you can consider it a kind of apprenticeship.

[Brandon]

From what I understand, students at Eastern Guilford are put on a track towards a 2 year or 4 year college education. I don't know if it has always been that way. I assume that students on the four year track take more advanced math and science classes.

[Joe Guarino]

Again, Brandon, it makes little sense. We know that a significant number of kids will never complete beyond 8th-10th grade because they get frustrated when they cannot do the work. I hear these stories frequently among my patients who are illiterate.

And of course, some will drop out of the scene over disciplinary issues.

We also need to remember that the median IQ score is 100. What this means is that half the population has an IQ below 100. Many of these kids may not be college material.

[Joe Guarino]

I would add that my own father attended a technical high school on Staten Island back during the 1940's, and took a vocational track. He learned carpentry, and had a career for himself. He was able to support a family consistently, and was the son of an immigrant. He never went to college.

[Jeff Deal]

Maybe conversion of one of Greensboro's long-in-the-tooth hotels with conference facilities to a men's vocational boarding school could work? What good does it do to keep a kid in school for seven hours a day (and another two hours a day on a bus, in the case of the ones being hauled from northeast Greensboro to Eastern High) just to send them back to a toxic home/neighborhood at night? Expensive, yes; but could it be worth it to instill in them the confidence of being genuinely skilled and productive citizens while negating the ill effects of their past.

[Joe Guarino]

I agree, Jeff, that this could be a great option.

I have been wondering throughout this entire discussion, however, precisely what the state of North Carolina would permit. Does the state permit vocational tracks any more? Do local school boards have the power to establish this type of program? I do not know what flexibility the state affords the local school systems in this regard.

[Jeff Deal]

From what I've heard from BOE members, much of the funding for vocational/CTE programs comes from the federal government. I suspect that any program that involves an "outside-the-box" approach would need to be on a charter school model, unless direct federal oversight were an option.

[Brandon Burgess]

One thing that I don't understand, and maybe I'm missing something here, is that if one decides to pursue a bachelor degree, you end up repeating your last two years of highschool as far as english, math and sciences go, in your first two years of college.

Maybe more kids would have a chance at success if our schools emphasized basic skills that deal with writing, research and critical thinking. After two years of that, students would then be adequately prepared for trade school or university course work, whichever path they pursue. Again, I'm sure there are things I'm missing out on but it seems reasonable to me. I'm not saying children don't benefit from these classes in high school, but I think maybe they would benefit more if the paths were more clearly defined, like Joe is talking about.

The thing is, so many kids just don't care about their future. They have tuned the teachers out and school is just a place to hang out and socialize. There are to many opportunities in Guilford county as far as education and employment go for kids to feel helpless and hopeless about their lives.

[Roch101]

A privileged white woman goes to a class of largely disadvantaged black kids with an "exercise" to demonstrate to them just how disadvantaged they are because of influences beyond their control. What is the point of that? It is sick and cruel.

[Brandon Burgess]

Roch, many kids today feel that their lives are pointless and out of their control. It is important for kids to recognize how education can help them and how much control they really do have over their behavior and their future.

The first step is recognizing what is holding you back, what you have/do not have control over, and how to take charge or initiative. Too many kids feel like the system is designed for them to fail and this message is pumped into their heads by the media, parents, and religious leaders. It's simply not true. Kids of all races, sizes, disabilities have more opportunities than ever to make something of themselves. So many of them will throw it away because of rap lyrics that make them feel like education is pointless and that street rep/respect is everything. That is sick and cruel and I don't doubt that there are millions of adherents to this message in every junior and senior high school.

[Stormy]

Roch re-emphasizes the stereotype of black kids as underprivileged, with a hopeless future. The man is holding them down. If that is the mindset of the progressive class now in charge of our schools, it sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Let's not even dare to suggest that some hard work and perseverance could result in them pulling themselves out of their hopelessness. Now, that is sick and cruel. It appears that Roch has never heard of Clarence Thomas. Justice Thomas was born into and raised in hopeless poverty in backwoods Georgia. His mother could not support him, so he was sent to be raised by his grandfather, who imparted to him the importance of a good education. He worked hard, in spite of experiencing some racism, and succeeded in life well-enough to become a justice of the Supreme Court. Thankfully, Justice Thomas never let someone tell him that he was disadvantaged due to influences beyond his control, and he could never succeed. This is why progressives, such as Roch, hate Justice Thomas. He showed that a black disadvantaged person can succeed, if they are motivated to do so through hard work and perseverance, along with continuing support and encouragement from your family, even if it consists only of your grandfather.

On another note, Barack Obama is launching a new Federal initiative to address school dropouts. This initiative sounds as though it has some promising elements, such as the use of charter schools to replace low performing-public schools. This initiative may have some positive results, but it fails to address the most important one; family. We can have some impact investing $900 million in grants to schools, which we have done so much of in the past, but this is addressing the symptoms more so than the root cause.

http://townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2010/03/01/obama_focuses_on_school_dropouts

[Brandon Burgess]

Ooh, Stormy mentioned the state of Georgia. There are racists in Georgia. I think Stormy might be racist. How bout it Roch?

But seriously, the government can only provide the educational and employment opportunities. It is up to the rest of society to motivate kids to take their education seriously. I talk to so many kids who say things like "well, I'm just going to be a plumber, so I don't need college". Seriously, I hear things like this quite often. Kids that think like this think they have found the easy way to a decent life because at 16 years old, 12 dollars an hour seems like a CEO salary. Little do they realize that after about 10 or 20 years in such a field, your body begins to wear down fast. They don't think about things like "how will I feed my children". School is just something to do until they turn 18.

[jaycee]

Roch typifies the liberal mindset--minorities are disadvantaged by The White Man and there is nothing they can do about it; ergo, the Federal Government must step in and make things right. And that means a larger and larger central government to force all us "little people" to act properly.
Thanks, Roch, you're enlightening the masses.

[Stormy]

Brandon, I disagree that "government can only provide educational and employment opportunities". First, there are charter schools and private schools that can provide educational oipportunities. Home schooling can do so also. Public education has become a money pit that begs for more and more dollars, but offers little in return in real education. Secondly, government does not provide employment opportunities, other than government jobs. Private enterprise has always provided the most employment opportunities in this country. If we ever get to where the only employment opportunities are with the government, this country will be in serious trouble. Government does not produce anything, it only spends money that it has acquired by taxing productive citizens. Orson Scott Card had another good take on changes trying to be made in our "educational opportunities" in our public schools:

http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/Articles-i-2010-02-25-204458.112113_The_Horse_Aint_Dead_Keep_on_Flogging.html

And, I disagree that all youth need to go to college to have a productive career. Yes, I am saying that all youth do not need college or to spend tens of thousands in doing so. Many youth attend college and get a "soft" degree in a subject that does not lead to a productive career, so why spend $10,000-$20,000 per year for four years? If that student gets the fundamentals in secondary school, they may be able to progress from that plumbing job to owning and operating his own company. Much of what is being taught in higher education these days does not help students become a CEO.

[Brandon Burgess]

I didn't mean to imply that only the govt can do these things. What I meant is that those things are all the govt can really do. It is up to society, families and teachers to do the real work with kids. I agree that with the flawed education that kids are receiving, very few of them are prepared to succeed in college or a career.

[dale]

I think Stormy is right. To many people are feeding our higher education system right now. What exactly will a history major do in life? Wouldn't a plumbers job be better to many of the students? I believe the attitude of our higher education folks in university and 4 year college settings need to come down a bit. Too much money, too little results. So we have the low level results in the black community (no education) and low level results in the white community (too much education) Sorry guys, too many MBA's running the school systems too.

[Stormy]

Brandon, okay, i misunderstood your "only" comment to mean that only the government could do it.

Dale, what a person with an history degree could do is become a school teacher. Of course, as the public schools attempt to rollback and revise what is taught as American History, that job isn't too attractive. It is becoming more of a current events and social justice course that is intended to diminish the importance and contributions of the country's founders, as old white men, who are no longer relevant to today's highly-progressive Millennial Generation.

[Cyndy Hayworth]

Roch:

"A privileged white woman goes to a class of largely disadvantaged black kids with an "exercise" to demonstrate to them just how disadvantaged they are because of influences beyond their control. What is the point of that? It is sick and cruel."

I am not sure where you perceived that I am "privileged", because I certainly am not. And...until you have walked in my shoes to try and help turn these young students life in another direction, I would request that you not make broad-brush statements that you have no data to determine whether an "exercise" is "sick and cruel!" All of the personnel and volunteers who I have been in contact with at the SCALES school are there for one purpose and that is to do their best to help these students!

[Roch101]

It is my opinion that humiliating kids in that manner is sick and cruel and would be whether perpetrated by someone privileged or themselves disadvantaged.

[Stormy]

I suppose that Roch wants an exercise that would be designed so that everyone could be a winner and get a trophy for participation, making them feel better about themselves. That may make them feel better initially, but it won't do anything to help them compete and succeed in the real world. Those students got to SCALE for a reason. Anything that a teacher does to help those students get some direction into their lives and get motivated is worth trying. Cyndy, why don't you invite Roch to come and join you for one day at SCALE? Maybe that would change his "opinion" on what is sick and cruel, when he is involved in the real world.

[Brandon Burgess]

Since race has been brought into the equation, (and rightly so because there do seem to be some issues there), I think it is important to understand what Ms. Hayworth's exercise actually does.

It seems to me that such an exercise helps young adults (and they are young adults) realize what exactly works to their disadvantage (broken homes, lack of basic skills) and what is in their control. I don't think there is a young black person in America who hasn't been told that they can never succeed, that the system is designed for them to succeed at failing. Jorge Cornell ran on that very platform and was supported by some very prominent and influential black community leaders.

That kind of self-defeating thinking makes it impossible for a child to even conceive of a future in which they lead a successful life, focused on family instead of street reputation that is gained from acting violently and anti-socially.

I think it is so important that 13-16 year olds realize how much of their lives is really in their control. They have to understand why an education is important. They have to understand that one day they will have children who need to be fed and clothed and kept warm. I never cared about or even thought about these things, so I dropped out of high school at 16. Fast forward 7 or 8 years and I begin to think about such matters. Lucky for me, we have a GTCC, and financial aid has been available so far.

I honestly don't know where I'd be if I weren't focused on ensuring the financial security of my family. That was the key, at least for me.

[Roch101]

Kids by that age fully understand their situations. They hardly need an Irving Park Junior Leaguer emphasizing that for them.

It would be entirely different if the questions asked were intended to illustrate personal choices or character: "Take a step forward if you do your homework every night;" "Take a step back if you have been in a fight in the past month." But the questions asked demean kids for their bad circumstances, not their choices--circumstances over which they have no control. Emphasizing the disadvantages of not living with your parents or not being able to afford books to kids who are going to go home to those stark realities is cruel and stunningly insensitive. It is driving home a point though.

[Stormy]

There's a name for sick and cruel, and it is Roch Smith.

[Brandon Burgess]

Roch, you know better than I do that the world is cruel and insensitive. I think you give todays teenagers to much credit. Most of them don't truly understand their situations. Most of them don't understand until they are facing years in prison. By that time, it is too late for many.

And I'm not trying to be smart here Roch, but how often do you interact with disadvantaged black kids? Were you ever a teacher? And believe me, I hate it when someone tells me "you aint been there! you can't understand!" and that is not what I'm hinting at. I do think that teenagers today are so jaded by social life, negative messages being sent to them, and mixed messages as well. All I can say is that if it were me being made to perform the exercise, I would probably think to myself "wow, I've got all this working against me. I see how others in my situation turn out. Maybe I should try something different".

I think this is a discussion that we need to have. I'm hoping this doesn't turn into another mudslinging thread.

I think what I am hitting on is that again, many underprivileged black children are taught by black leaders that the system is set up for them to fail when the opposite is true. The system is designed to give minorities a fair shot, sometimes perceived as unfair by many whites.

It's not the system that pushes kids towards failure. It is apathy, wreckless and risky behavior, mismanagement of finances that lead to failure. Of course, I can understand the notion that broken families inhibit the growth of an individual from child to adult. But that's a whole 'nother thread.